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Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.

Offline arne

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Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« on: January 14, 2008, 11:42:26 PM »
As I observed this exelent howto on the wiki of how to install the Vmware virtual server on the SME server, I realized I have to try it out.

http://wiki.contribs.org/Vmware

Installation went very smooth and it apeared that that or those persons that has done this howto have done a real good job.

The question that I had to ask myself was: Why should I run a virtual server on my SME server, what could this be used for, and should I run something like a virtual Linux server installation under a real Linux server installation ?

The idea that struck me was that there might be an intersting thing to check out if I could run some kind of a Windows klient inside the sme gateway. I also got that idea that it could be intesting to connect a web cam to the virual Windows installation to be able to perform remote visual observations from the server area.

My first installation was a Windows 2000 Pro SP4 installation on a SME test server that was natted in from the SME gateway. Except for some problems to get the camera up and working and externally accessable, this went rather nice and everything seemed to be working rather stable and OK. After rebooting the SME server the web cam was still on.

For my second attempt I decided to install a vitual Windows XP SP2 installation direct on my SME gateway doing the same camera things. This time it apeared to be some instability so that the virtual windows client worked for a while, and then crached. (Could be related to Windows 2000 versus Windows XP but could also be related to difrent hardware, drivers etc.)

I tried out two ways of doing remote control for the virtual Windows client from hotspots, restricted lan areas etc.

Method number one was to install the free Vmware console program on the client PC and then to do ssh tunneling to the gateway via a ssh connection running on TCP 443. This worked, but the connection apeared to be to slow to be able to say this worked good. It was working bether for the virtual Windows 2000 installation than for the virtual XP installation.

I then also tried to install the free logmein service on the virtual Windows 2000 installation and the virtual Windows XP installation. IT apeared that the logmein service gave a far bether and quicker connection to the virtual, installations compared with using the Vmware console program via a ssh tunnel. http://www.logmein.com

What I'm thinking of now is if I should replace the virtual XP installation with a virtual Win 2000 installation on the gateway to see if this works bether.

What I am courious about is any of you has some good ideas or positive or negative experiences, about how to use the option of running virtual operating system at or inside the SME server.
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Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2008, 12:49:52 AM »
To use a USB web cam connected to a virtual Windows installation apeared to be a bit tricky and hardware dependent. On the one PC both WIndows XP and WIndows 2000 crached when the Web cam were conncted. On the other PC Windows 2000 runned more stable with the web cam, but it was a bit tricky to configure. The web cam alternative is now a closed project.

It is my general impression that an updated Windows 2000 installation is a very good alternative if one should like to have a virtual Windows client inside the SME server. I guess there is a lot of unused Windows 2000 licenses around also. The virtual Windows 2000 pro performs very good with only 256 MB dedicated RAM.

One other alternative that I have tested out is to install 2 or 3 virtual SME servers configured as "server-only", inside the real sme gateway, for testing purposes, and to try out new contribs, software installations, etc. It works very nice I think when running one vitual Windows 2000 client against one virtual sme server, at the time, each using 256 MB dedicated ram. When tests does now work to well the virtual sme server can just be deleted and replace by a bacup copy.

These are my best options for the practical use of the vmware contrip until now.

If anyone has some good or bad experiences or any ideas how to use the vmware contrip in the best practical way on the SME server, it would be interesting to know.

By the way, don't know if it is possible to forward external traffic to a virtual server via the ordinary server-manager forwarding configuration tool. I guess this will be possible, but I have not tried. 

When it comes to the security issue, I noted that the vmware contrib did only install a bridge connected to the lan card as default (not the wan card.) To open up for web access to a virtual server running inside a SME gateway, will I guess involve some security issues. (For testing purposes only, I guess.)
I guess it will be right to say that virtual servers can not be runned at all in a internet connected SME gateway, if security should be maintained on a "reasonable level". (There will anyhow be to many unklear and possible sideeffects.)

If there is some ideas around about "the virtual alternative" it would be interresting to know.
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Offline thomasch

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2008, 03:15:02 AM »
When tests does now work to well the virtual sme server can just be deleted and replace by a bacup copy.

To delete and replace virtual os with backup copy is too complex to me I think.

Vmware have snapshot feature. It can be use as a backup copy of 'last good configuration' of the guest OS, or maybe as a 'frozen clean install'. You can roll back to the last snapshot instead delete and copying vmdk files.

My 1500 Rupiahs (I'm in Indonesia).

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2008, 09:36:05 AM »
Thanks for good ideas  :)

Increasing or reducing the number of virtual servers is actually next to nothing when you first have made one. If you have a virtual SME server in a folder sme01 and you then multiply this folder using the copy function up to sme01-sme10, then you got 10 virtual server installations. If you delete 3 folders with content you got 7. This makes it extremely simple, quick and easy to test out contribs, new software, etc.

For reasons I do not understand I can not obtain https access from lan to the virtual server (normally running one at the time.)
When using a virtual Windows 2000 client, on the virtual lan inside the SME server, against the virtual sme server installation, this is not a problem.

I have noted that the snapshot feature is there on the server console, but I have not used it, as it is so simple to copy up and make more virtual servers from one "original installation".

I will say that the vmware contrib works unbelivable well, and the installation according to the wiki also turns out to give very good configuration alternatives when using only default options, for server-only installations, and for server-gateway installations. (I'm using a private server-gateway installation at the moment, to make it a little bit more safe.)

By the way Norway here. Cold, dark and bad at the moment, so it is not much more to do here at the moment than playing with SME boxes.
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Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice. (??!!)
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2008, 12:13:40 AM »
The firewall routing situation related to virtual installations apear to be a difficult thing, at least when the host sme server is running as a gateway. (Using standard firewall. Did also try with an alternative firewall configuration, but it did not help.)

It is difficult to get communication trough to the internal virtual servers from the LAN and from internet. Ordinary port forwarding to the virtual servers seems not to be working.

It looks like the only way to gain "full acess" to the virtual installation is to also have a virtual WIN2000 or XP client running on the virtual lan. This can be used for testing but possibly not for mych more (??!!)

Could this be a question of routing so that the packets arriving at eth0 and eth1 does not know where to move to find "the virtual lan" (??!!)

Could it be that the only practical way to run virtual installations on a SME server is if you run the SME server in server-only mode when the single network card is bridged over to the virtual servers som that the virtal installations will belong to your lan segment (??!!)

Anybody who knows or got some ideas ?  
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Offline jumba

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2008, 10:40:13 AM »
One easy way of including a virtual machine in the nightly backup of Smeserver I've used is to use a cron script like this:

Code: [Select]
vmware-cmd /path/NAME_OF_MACHINE.vmx stop soft
sleep 120 (just to make sure the machine is completely OFF before next line!)
rsync -aur /path/NAME_OF_MACHINE /path/backups/NAME_OF_MACHINE
vmware-cmd /path/NAME_OF_MACHINE.vmx start soft

Of course, this consumes a lot of disc space, but the backup includes a complete copy of the virtual machine.

Last time I made such a solution was with a virtual Windows SBS 2003. It had a 50 GB virtual disk, and the rsync copy took somewhere arount 7 minutes to complete on a quite modest server with sata discs.

...Just my two cents :-P

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2008, 03:45:34 PM »
Jumba -> Thanks a lot. This information also gave me one other answer that I did not have: "How can I start and stop a virtual server from shell."

My testing environment now consist of one SME 7.3 gateway with vmware server, one SME server-only on lan with vmware server, one Windows XP with vmware server and one with vmware workstation and vmware workstation has also been tested on a Ubuntu workstation.

My testing and my impression, until now, of the vmware contrib can be summed up like this:

1. The instructions found in the wiki for installing the wmware server works perfect every time.

2. Running virtual installations does as a general rule not affect the stability of the underlaying operating system. Even though there might be accidents with the virtual installations this will generally not affect the underlaying (SME) operating system.

3. If the virtual installation is running on a SME server running in server-gateway or private server-gateway mode (I'm testing with the last variant) it will be very difficult to gain full access to the installations from lan and from internett. The way of using a virtual installation running on a server-gateway could be to install a virtual windows client on the internal virtual network and make the access from this. A virtual installation on the gateway will, I think normally be running in vmware nat mode. There is a lot of written information on the vmware web, but I were not able to solve the access problem until now. (The problems is related to the nat mechanism.)

4. If the virtual installation is running on a SME server running in server-only mode, the virtual installations can be bridged and there will be no problem releated to access at all. When doing virtualization on a SME server-only installation the virtual installations will be accessable, with a lan address, like any other server installation.

5. If you for some reason want to have a virtual Windows client installation the Windows 2000 SP4 is a very good performing virtual client that runns very well with only 256 mb of dedicated ram. (There will be some overhead so it will use slightly more.) XP SP is tested and can also be used, but I think it it pulls more resources and more memory and runns slower. The new installed virtual Windows 2000 Pro fills ca 2 Gb. XP approx 4 GB (and SME server approx 1 GB If I remember it right.)

6. If you like to have some remote logon option for a virtual Windows 2000 client running inside your SME gateway, the free logmein.com service is the best option, if you trust their security consept. Using the Vmware server console via internet for this purpose works to slowly. I tried VNC Tight and it did not perform well either. Windows 2000 does not have windows remote desktop, so I have not tested this.

7. The free Vmware server product is a superior product to the commersial workstation product. Virtual installations made under vmware workstation can not be runned under vmware server. On the other hand virtual installations were copied over from SME 7.3, where they vere made and over to a vmware server running on XP. This worked without a problem.

8. Using USB units like a camera seems to be a bit tricky. On both tested hardware the setup was rather tricky. On one hardware XP and Win 2000 clients with connected camera crached all the time. On one hardware it worked more stable.

9. If you have a SME server only with 1 GB of ram and vmware on it, running in server-only mode, then this will be a exelent platform for testing out new beta revisions of the SME server (like SME 8.0) and new contribs. When you have messed it all up, you can just delete your virtual server and copy over a new one from the backup coupy. Your host (SME) system will still be clean and unchanged while your "guest" is replaced.

10. When it comes to performace the vmware web page claims that there is not any difference between a Linux and a Windows host operating system. Could be something with the hardware, but during my testing I beleve that the SME based virtual installations performed quite a bit bether than the Windows XP based installations.


One insteresting open question:

"How will a dedicated Asterisk distro like Astlinux or Trixbox perform as a virtual server installation under sme/vmware ?"

As there is, until now, not any known way to forward ports from internet to the virtual servers at a SME gateway, it has to be done on a server-only installation.

Today I run my SME Asterisk server direct on the host operating system of the SME gateway. This gives a direct external IP to the Asterisk server as my ADSL modem runs in bridge mode. I would guess thiss arrangement will give the best (for me) possible performance.

I would guess that running a virtual Trixbox or an AstLinux installation as virtual installations on a SME server-only server will lead to slover performance and reduced quality. On the other hand this is not 100 % for sure, so it could be rather interesting to know.


If anyone has some ideas, some experiences, some info or some open questions about how the new vmware contrib can be used, please leave a message  :-) 
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 03:47:32 PM by arne »
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Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2008, 04:04:42 PM »
.. by the way there is approx 750 free pdf pages and some more html info on this subject:
http://www.vmware.com/support/pubs/server_pubs.html
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Offline william_syd

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2008, 01:03:00 AM »

 new vmware contrib can be used

New? Did I miss something?


If anyone has some ideas,

Yes. Try to get Server2 beta working with SME.

http://www.vmware.com/beta/server/
Regards,
William

IF I give advise.. It's only if it was me....

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2008, 02:10:03 AM »
I did not know anything about virtualization until a rather short time ago. I also know a lot of people that knows less about this subject that I does now.

There are still open questions on the basic functinality of the vmware 1.x server when installed on SME server. One of these basic questions is how to access virtual server resourses running inside a SME gateay server.

It does not seem to be the case that the contrib or the SME gateway does support this (??!!) (Unless there is a smart way to configure the vmware server or its enviromnent so it is possible to gain direct access to the virtual server resources.)

The situation seems still to be that a default sme server installation that means a server-gateay installation will not give access to the virtual server installations when addressing these via ip from lan or from internet.

Is this correct or does this problem have a solution ?

The 750-1000 pages documentation at the vmware web (manuals etc) is related to the the version 1.x

I think there is still missing a few things on the 1.x project before one can say everything is solved and everything is working.

By the way, I don't know what basic news that will be in the vmware 2.x server. Should be interesing to know  :-) 
Correction: Your link does contain some interesting information :) :)

http://www.vmware.com/products/beta/vmware_server/vmserver2.pdf
« Last Edit: January 21, 2008, 02:16:58 AM by arne »
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Offline imcintyre

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2008, 02:33:50 AM »
I read down to the "Supported 32 Bit Guest Operating System" and did not see SME or Centos listed :shock:

Offline william_syd

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2008, 02:41:03 AM »
I read down to the "Supported 32 Bit Guest Operating System" and did not see SME or Centos listed :shock:

Linux 32-Bit Guest Operating Systems

Red Hat Enterprise Linux AS 5.0
Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES 5.0
Red Hat Enterprise Linux WS 5.0
Red Hat Enterprise Linux AS 4.5
Red Hat Enterprise Linux ES 4.5
Red Hat Enterprise Linux WS 4.5
Regards,
William

IF I give advise.. It's only if it was me....

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2008, 03:03:10 AM »
By reading further on i the documentation I can see that both Centos hosting and guest operating system is supportet  :)

I have until now not been able to solve the problem of obtainig full access to the virtual server installations running on a SME gateway. Forwarding of ports from Intenet has apeared to be impossible (??!!) and access from LAn to the virtual installations running on a SME gateway is only limited. (I am using private server mode, could this be the reason, I guess not..)

(Tunneling in to the Virtual resorces via SSH works. An indirect logon via a local virtual Windows client using logmein.com also works.)

Would it be the right conclusion to say that virtualization on the SME server via the vmware contrib can only be done (with full access to the virtual installations) when SME server is running in server-only mode ??!! (So that the virtual installations is bridged over to the LAN network so they can be accessed like LAN resurses via LAN IP's)

Anybody that has a fully working solution for the "virtualization on the gateway" alternative ? 

(I wondering if the missing comunication from lan to the virtually installations actually is a routing problem ??)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 03:09:58 AM by arne »
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Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2008, 03:27:33 PM »
Asterisk installed on a virtual server has been tested and it seems to be working quite well (has only been tested for private use and a rather small traffic load.)

The virtual Asterisk installation was done by just downloading the prebuilt vmware image for Astlinux, and then to configure this one. I then made a duplicate of this installation by just copying it over to another directory. It apears thet it is possible to have to identical configured virtual Astlinux servers installed at one SME server, so that the one can be there as a backup for the other. In this way it is possible to do all kind of testing without any risk as the virtual server instance that might be messed up can just be deleted and replaced by the backup copy.

Vhen running a virtual asterisk server, the complete installation and configuration procedure can now be reduced to just draging and dropping over a preconfigured virtual Astlinux server.

I guess it will work with the bigger and more complex Trixbox server but I have not tried. (But I think there is reasons to belive that the virtual Trixbox will not perform as well as the virtual Astlinux (that is only 68 MB big and runs from a virtual ram disk.)

As far as I can see virtualization is a very good idea for running server functions and software solutions that is not a part of the basic SME server design. The virtual server installations will not have any noticable impact on the stability or security of the SME server, at least as long as running in server-only mode.

When virtual servers crash and when they are messed up and instable, this will as a general rule not affect the stability of the underlaying SME server host operating system. In this way it is possible to do rather heavy modifications and experiments on virtual server while the underlaying operating system remains unchanged.

On the other hand - if virtualization is the the good and reasonable way of doing diverse things, the SME server can not be a gateway any more, it need to be installed like server-only, and it will need a dedicated firewall in front of it.

If virtualization is used as a basic prinsiple for an server, then it will be needed two PC's, one something like a Smoothwall in front and then the virtualization server, the SME server running in server-only mode and as a lan server. (Together with the virtual servers that will also be lan servers.)

If anyone would be able to come up with a soulution "how to run virtual servers at a SME server running as a gateway" it would be great ! (I actually does that myself, but I am not able to make communication to work to and from the virtual servers, running at the gateway, like it should. It would be no problem to install and start up a virtual Astlinux server on the SME gateway, but as long as it can not receive traffic neither from LAN or from Internet it can be used for nothing.)

I would believe that as a general rule virtualization is a bether approach than doing heavy modifications on the underlaying SME server operating system. 

Here is a lot of statements of how to do these things...

Hopefully I'm wrong on some of them, and hopefully someone could correct me, so it is possible to learn some more ..

There is some network options on the vmware console. Is there any way to set up things here so that the virtual server can communicate "as normal" also when running on a SME gateway ?    
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Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2008, 06:12:28 PM »
Problem about running virtual servers on gateway finally solved (I hope and believe).

What apear is the case it that the Vmware contrib by default installs one Vmware nat connection related to the external network adapter and one bridge related to the internal network adapter. The nat connection of the Vmware server and the nat connection of the Linux firewall is operating as two parallell and independent nat mechanisms, which make it all rather confusing.

What worked in the end was to install the virtual sme server on a sme gateway server as a virtual one card server-only installation and then only to brigde it over to the internal network adapter on the gateway. (Using the Vmware server console from a Win workstation.) When it is configured like this the virtual server vill not use the nat mechanism of Vmware server any more, it will change over to the nat mechanism of Linux/Sme server.

Doing it this way will mean that the default standard firewall of the sme server will be able to handle the virtual server like any other ordinary lan server, the port forwarding mechanism will work like normal, etc.

At the moment I am running one SME server gateway host system, one virtual Win 2000 workstation, one virtual sme server 7.3 for testing, one sme server 8.0 for testing, and one Astlinux telephony server, all in one single box and hardware, and connected directely to internet. All virtual installations is available from lan and also from internet via port forwarding as they were physical servers running at lan.

There is only one modification performed on the SME server-gateway host system, and that is the installation of the Wmware contrib. Firewall soultion is the unmodified SME standard firewall.

I such things could be discussed or explored on this forum it could also had been possible to discuss and develop a spesialized firewall soultion optimized for virtualization. But things are actually also working quite well as "standard".

What seems to be tha case is that the underlying sme server gateway operating system can be left unchanged, with default reliability and stability intact, while all (riscy) testing and modifications can be moved over to virtualization.
 
« Last Edit: January 27, 2008, 06:21:15 PM by arne »
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Offline william_syd

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2008, 12:22:56 AM »
Problem about running virtual servers on gateway finally solved (I hope and believe).

What apear is the case it that the Vmware contrib by default installs one Vmware nat connection related to the external network adapter and one bridge related to the internal network adapter.

Are you sure the contrib does this or is it caused by accepting the default answers when running vmware-config.pl ?
Regards,
William

IF I give advise.. It's only if it was me....

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2008, 03:03:18 AM »
Actually I'm sure that this was two of the questions when running vmware-config.pl so actually it might not be a "part" of the contrib, it is actually the default answers in this config script, to set up one nat and one bridge. So you are right  :-D

As I think the vmware nat connection is more confusing than neccessary, for the SME server, so I was actually thinking about running the script again to deselect it. (To make things as easy and well structured as possible and to remove any unneccessary modifications relatet to the internet connected adapter.)

I first tried to see if it was some vmware configuration file to deactivate the nat connection, but I could not find that .. There is something in /etc/vmware but don't know if it is adviceable to edit here ..

The "bridged to the lan" alternative seems to be a good alternative for SME server as it looks like this works perfectly well with the existing firewall, forwarding tools, etc.

By the way it is impressing to se how the vmware server installation handles the boot up sequence when 4 or 5 installations shall get started. I had expected that to slow and messy. But it is not. First the underlaying operating system starts up, like normal, then after this has stabilized, then the first virtual installation comes up, when this has stabilized, the third, etc. It's really well made :)
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 03:11:45 AM by arne »
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Offline william_syd

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2008, 04:54:42 AM »
I first tried to see if it was some vmware configuration file to deactivate the nat connection, but I could not find that .. There is something in /etc/vmware but don't know if it is adviceable to edit here ..

I'm not sure anything needs changing. It would make updating just more difficult.

Prehaps the wiki could be extended to include all possible situations.

Host Config          Guest Config

Server-Gateway   >>  Server-Gateway
Server-Gateway   >>  Server Only
Server Only      >>  Server-Gateway
Server Only      >>  Server Only


By the way it is impressing to se how the vmware server installation handles the boot up sequence when 4 or 5 installations shall get started. I had expected that to slow and messy. But it is not. First the underlaying operating system starts up, like normal, then after this has stabilized, then the first virtual installation comes up, when this has stabilized, the third, etc. It's really well made :)

This is customisable via the console app or the MUI.

Have you looked at the command line tools to manipulate VM's?
Regards,
William

IF I give advise.. It's only if it was me....

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2008, 11:06:08 PM »
No, I don't know about the command line (or vmware script) option. Is there some info somewhere ?

Have got working the "Host:server-gateway, guest:server-only" alternative and the "host: server only, guest: server only" alternatives.

These alternatives works very good with the SME server as both alteratives gives virtual clients or servers that behaves as if they were physical installations located on lan.

I think both those alternatives gives a solution that is quite usable. As an example can be mentioned the Astlinux Asterisk server. You just drag and drop a preconfigured module of 68 Mb and start it up, and if there is any problem, it is just to delete the old virtual server and drag and drop over a new one. If you use the same ip for the virtual server as for the physical server you replace, there is no need for reconfiguring the ip telephony clients at all.

I have not been able to get the virtual sme server-gateway to work yet, and I have some problems to understand how this option can be used in a reasonable way, in a sme server environment.

Anyhow it will still be interesting to look into. I can se that the "Virtual machine guide" has a chapter no 7, page 153, that might explain some of the required theory, but I can not say I understand it copletely, yet: http://www.vmware.com/pdf/server_vm_manual.pdf
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 11:08:07 PM by arne »
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Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2008, 05:02:52 PM »
I went trough the Vmware Virtual Machine Guide chapter 7 and made a test installation of a virtual SME server-gateway inside a real SME server gateway. For reasont I dont know it was not possible to make an Internet connection trough the virtual server-gateway. The Virtual server-gateway was not able to comunicate against Internet either. (Could it be a firewalling problem ?) On the other hand the virtual gateway worked for connections from a virtual Windows client.

As I see it, it does not give much sence to run a virtual server-gateway inside a real server-gateway and it did not work (for me) when it come to the internet connection for the virtual server-gateway.

So I concluded that there is realy one reasonable and usable way to run a virtual SME server or any other server as a virtual installation under SME server is as server only and bridged to the internal network adapter for the server gateway, or to the single adapter to a server-only installation.

So I did rerun the Vmware server configuration script, and this time I deselceted the wmnet1 and the wmnet8, so it is only one communication option left, the brige alternative. (wmnet0).

When using the brigdge mode as the only alternative then this gives a kind of virtualization that fits very well with the SME server design philosophy, it is quite simple to use and all virtual installations apears like just ordinary lan server or clients, protected by the SME server-gateway firewall.

It would be interesting to know if there is some other SME users that has some other ideas or some other experiences of how the Vmware virtualization might be used in a best possible way on a SME server.
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Offline imcintyre

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2008, 08:23:44 PM »
Arne;

I have been following the discussion as best I can because this seems a useful concept but I can't fit the trial of it into my time or hardware budget. I am a bit confused by the sme server within sme server idea, but see second question. I do get the idea of being able to clone a system once you have it running virtually

You had written extensively in another post regarding changes to the sme firewall. Does vmware give you the option of running a different firewall program (smoothwall, m0n0, or others) and the sme server in gateway mode and thereby achieving some of your other goals.

It would seem to me that it would be useful to use the smallest possible host operating system and that SME server might not be the best solution as host (not an opinion, a question). Do you have any insight into this? I did try to set up Ubuntu and Automatix install of a virtual environment but did not get very far as the hardware I had was not up to it.

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2008, 11:39:04 PM »
incimtyre ->

In good and bad I like to take one "theme" at the time, to try to find out "everything" about that "theme" at the time. (tree last was Asterisk, Firewall and now Vmware virtualization.)

About hardware: I bought myself a cheap demo used high performance mainboard and a twin core AMD Athlon plus 4 Gig of RAM, that is now rather cheap. I planned it to be my new workstation, but it ended up as the new SME server gateway with virtualization and there is now 3-4 server boxes that does not have any patrticular use any more. My workstation is still the same but everything I do against internet works much quicker than it did use to do (Due to the new speedy proxy).

About firewalling: No, the virtualization consept does not give anything new to "the firewalling theme". (For me.) Theoreticaly it could have been an option to install something like a "virtual Smoothwall" on the SME server and there might also be some ideas about using virtualization to implement the 3'rd NIC, but I do not have to much believe in these ideas (But they still might work.) I'm allmost surprised to find that the exoisting SME firewall support virtualization perfectly as long as you use the bridge mode option.

About platform for virtualization: I was and does think in some of the same directions - is it really reasonable to use the SME server at the host operating system, as it has quite many processess running. I am downloading Ubuntu server just now to do some comperations. What I expect to find, but that have not found yet, is that the nuber of processess does not have much impact on the performance of virtualization as long as these processes does not do much work that will put work on the processors. I don't know yet, but I will expect to find that using a small as possible host operating system will work much simular as using the SME server as the host operatiing system. The SME server will have the advance that you can switch between virtualization and ordinary native server functions as you like to. It can also support selected services natively. By the way I believe that virtualization is the biggest new thing in computing after the Internet, so it is rather intersting to learn this "new" technology.

The good thing about using the SME server as the virtualization platform is that you allways will have the choise, should i run this service "natively" or should it virtualize it (like the asterisk server). I think it is also intersting that you gor the option of running a local Windows or Linux workstation client inside the SME gateway. Combined wirth the free logmein.com service this gives a logon from anywhere without the need og knowing ip address etc. (But the security of this solution might be questioned.)

I will try out Ubuntu as vitualization platform at my old SME box. (AMD Sempron + 1 Gig) One thing I do not completely understand is that I think that the Vmware dokumentation mentions that Vmware server will not support a wireless card if Linux is the host operation system. (But it works with Windows.) If it would work with Ubuntu Linux as the host system, this could have been a intersting option. 

About time: It's not time it is just fun.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 11:41:33 PM by arne »
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Offline imcintyre

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2008, 11:48:27 PM »
This is what I was following before.

Quote
This is getting a bit O.T., but please forgive me for this post! I just want to help this guy out Confused

Quote from: imcintyre on October 15, 2007, 12:03:49 PM
Jumba;

I installed ubuntu 6.0.6 LTS and then tried virtualbox but there was an install error that I couldn't see easily how to resolve.

.....

I also looked at the automatix site but couldn't quite understand what they were getting at or trying to do.



It's amazingly easy to get it installed in Ubuntu!

First of all, Ubuntu 7.10 is scheduled to be released on October 18'th, so you might as well consider upgrading before you continue!

I'll try to explain how to do it in a few steps:

1. Running from your Ubuntu, point Firefox to http://www.getautomatix.com/wiki/index.php?title=Installation and select the correct version for your system.

2. When you click on the .deb file, you will most probably be promted to choose to DL the file to your computer or run the file directly through the Ubuntu package manager. I assume you select to use the package manager.

3. You'll be promted to type your password in order to install the package.

Please do open up the "show details window" during installation, - you'll have to accept some license stuff I think!

4. Now you can find "Automatix" in your system menu.

5. Fire it up, and through Automatix select category "Virtualization", and in that category select "VirtualBox".

6. In Automatix, after selecting "VirtualBox": Click on the button "START"...

Please do open up the "show details window" during installation, - you'll have to accept some license stuff I think!

This way, the installation goes through without any complications.

Good luck!

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2008, 12:08:12 AM »
Thanks. I thought that the Automatix was for the workstation Ubuntu ? (It's not ?)
I googled something here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VMware/Server
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 12:55:03 AM by arne »
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Offline imcintyre

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2008, 12:22:26 AM »
The Ubuntu/automatix install was very simple and completely "GUI" as I recall. I was able to easily install sme server 7.2. The machine I had as spare was old and very very slow so I dropped it to concentrate on my production server.

http://forums.contribs.org/index.php?topic=38805.0

http://www.getautomatix.com/
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 12:27:56 AM by imcintyre »

Offline william_syd

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2008, 12:41:28 AM »
The Ubuntu/automatix install was very simple and completely "GUI" as I recall.

I thought Automatix was frowned upon by the Ubuntu community.
Regards,
William

IF I give advise.. It's only if it was me....

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2008, 12:46:12 AM »
OK.

By the way the Vmware on SME server works perfect, everything is stable, host system, guest systems, Windows, Linux, etc, performace is very good, and there is no issues at all. The virtual Astlinux Asterisk installation also works perfect. (And I think that the Astlinux is the best Asterisk distro that is around.)

The only reason to test out Ubuntu as an alternative host system is to have a refference and something to compare with.
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Offline imcintyre

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2008, 01:16:37 AM »
William;

I found a couple of posts on the Ubuntu website. One indicating that they may be playing nice;

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Automatix/Ubuntu_Team_Collaboration?highlight=%28automatix%29

and another one that they are not;

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AutomatixIssues?highlight=%28automatix%29

Arne;

This might not be practical to pursue. Sorry if I steered you wrong, I was relying on another's advice.

Ian

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2008, 01:28:05 AM »
No .. some new ideas and suggestions are allways welcome  :)

By the way I forgot to mention (and to think about) one argument when it comes to compare a "minimalistic" host system (like Ubuntu server basic setup) with a more "buildt out" host system (like SME server.)

When the virtual installation is running on a "buildt out" host system and doing it in brigde mode, the virtual installations will have access to and can use all the resources of the host operating system, like dns server, web proxy, ssh tunneling end point, VPN endpont, and the host systems firewall as well.

All of this is running without a bug on the sme server gateway.
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Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2008, 04:21:45 AM »
Hardware, testserver: Sempron 64 + 1 GB

Installed Ubuntu for AMD 64. Stright forward, no problems.

Then installed Vmware using a slightly modified procedure found on Ubuntu Wiki:

sudo apt-get install build-essential linux-headers-`uname -r` xinetd ia32-libs
wget http://download3.vmware.com/software/vmserver/VMware-server-1.0.3-44356.tar.gz
wget http://knihovny.cvut.cz/ftp/pub/vmware/vmware-any-any-update115.tar.gz
tar -xzvf VMware-server-1.0.3-44356.tar.gz
tar -xzvf vmware-any-any-update115.tar.gz
sudo cp vmware-any-any-update115/*.tar vmware-server-distrib/lib/modules/source/
cd vmware-server-distrib/
sudo mkdir -p /etc/vmware/ssl
sudo touch /etc/vmware/ssl/rui.key
sudo touch /etc/vmware/ssl/rui.crt
sudo ./vmware-install.pl

All configuration alternatives selected to default. Installed no problem.

Sat new root password on Ubuntu64: sudo root passwd

Logged into Vmserver via windows console. Still no problems.

Tried to install SME 7.3. Vmware server and host operating system crashed.

Tried to install Windows 2000. Worked without a problem.

Tried to install Astlinux. Vmware server and host operating system crashed.

Conclusion: Vmware server on this host and this operating system supports Windows 32 bit systems but not Linux 32 bit systems. Not specificly related to SME 7.3 (The processor or the operating system ??)

Next step: Try to install Ubuntu 7.10 32 bit host system instead.

Comparision until now: All points to SME 7.3 virtual host system, zero points to Ubuntu.  :D
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 04:23:45 AM by arne »
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Offline william_syd

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2008, 01:34:52 PM »
Conclusion: Vmware server on this host and this operating system supports Windows 32 bit systems but not Linux 32 bit systems. Not specificly related to SME 7.3 (The processor or the operating system ??)

Next step: Try to install Ubuntu 7.10 32 bit host system instead.

Comparision until now: All points to SME 7.3 virtual host system, zero points to Ubuntu.  :D

Host
william@william-ubuntu:~$ uname -a
Linux william-ubuntu 2.6.22-14-generic #1 SMP Tue Dec 18 05:28:27 UTC 2007 x86_64 GNU/Linux


Guest
[root@ubuntu-sme ~]# uname -a
Linux ubuntu-sme 2.6.9-67.0.1.ELsmp #1 SMP Wed Dec 19 16:01:12 EST 2007 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux


Host Specs

william@william-ubuntu:~$ cat /proc/cpuinfo
processor       : 0
vendor_id       : GenuineIntel
cpu family      : 6
model           : 15
model name      : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU    Q6600  @ 2.40GHz
stepping        : 11
cpu MHz         : 1596.000
cache size      : 4096 KB
physical id     : 0
siblings        : 4
core id         : 0
cpu cores       : 4


william@william-ubuntu:~$ lspci
00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation 82G33/G31/P35/P31 Express DRAM Controller (rev 02)
00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation 82G33/G31 Express Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 02)
00:03.0 Communication controller: Intel Corporation 82G33/G31/P35/P31 Express MEI Controller (rev 02)
00:19.0 Ethernet controller: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) Gigabit Ethernet Controller (rev 02)
00:1a.0 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) USB UHCI Controller #4 (rev 02)
00:1a.1 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) USB UHCI Controller #5 (rev 02)
00:1a.2 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) USB UHCI Controller #6 (rev 02)
00:1a.7 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) USB2 EHCI Controller #2 (rev 02)
00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) HD Audio Controller (rev 02)
00:1c.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) PCI Express Port 1 (rev 02)
00:1c.1 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) PCI Express Port 2 (rev 02)
00:1c.2 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) PCI Express Port 3 (rev 02)
00:1c.3 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) PCI Express Port 4 (rev 02)
00:1c.4 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) PCI Express Port 5 (rev 02)
00:1d.0 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) USB UHCI Controller #1 (rev 02)
00:1d.1 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) USB UHCI Controller #2 (rev 02)
00:1d.2 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) USB UHCI Controller #3 (rev 02)
00:1d.7 USB Controller: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) USB2 EHCI Controller #1 (rev 02)
00:1e.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801 PCI Bridge (rev 92)
00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 82801IH (ICH9DH) LPC Interface Controller (rev 02)
00:1f.2 SATA controller: Intel Corporation 82801IR/IO/IH (ICH9R/DO/DH) 6 port SATA AHCI Controller (rev 02)
00:1f.3 SMBus: Intel Corporation 82801I (ICH9 Family) SMBus Controller (rev 02)
02:00.0 IDE interface: Marvell Technology Group Ltd. 88SE6101 single-port PATA133 interface (rev b1)
06:02.0 Multimedia video controller: Conexant CX23880/1/2/3 PCI Video and Audio Decoder (rev 05)
06:02.2 Multimedia controller: Conexant CX23880/1/2/3 PCI Video and Audio Decoder [MPEG Port] (rev 05)
06:03.0 FireWire (IEEE 1394): Texas Instruments TSB43AB22/A IEEE-1394a-2000 Controller (PHY/Link)
william@william-ubuntu:~$


william@william-ubuntu:/proc$ cat ./meminfo
MemTotal:      3977380 kB
MemFree:         29160 kB
Buffers:         10644 kB
Cached:        3187820 kB
SwapCached:        492 kB
Active:        2261308 kB
Inactive:      1351236 kB
SwapTotal:    11647084 kB
SwapFree:     11608568 kB
Dirty:          105664 kB
Writeback:           0 kB
AnonPages:      413648 kB
Mapped:         359892 kB
Slab:           120244 kB
SReclaimable:    94080 kB
SUnreclaim:      26164 kB
PageTables:      15868 kB
NFS_Unstable:        0 kB
Bounce:              0 kB
CommitLimit:  13635772 kB
Committed_AS:   945488 kB
VmallocTotal: 34359738367 kB
VmallocUsed:     46100 kB
VmallocChunk: 34359691771 kB
william@william-ubuntu:/proc$
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 01:38:47 PM by william_syd »
Regards,
William

IF I give advise.. It's only if it was me....

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2008, 03:31:27 PM »
OK, we give a few points back to Ubuntu, because it can obviously work  :D

What I belive is/might be the reason why it does not work here is the first generation Sempron 64 processor. (I think I have seen mentioned in the documantation of Vmware, somewhere that the Sempron processor, is not fully supported.)

Will give this PC a new try with the 32 bit Ubuntu.

Thanks a lot for that information. (I have some ideas to try with a little bit newer AMD Athlon dual core a little bit later on, and I would expect this to work.)

One other thing .. when doing virtualization on Ubuntu 64 is there things that runns qualitative different from what can be expected from doing the same virtualization using the SME server as host operating system ? Is a SME server running as a virtual installation on a 64 bit platform superior to a ordinary 32 bit native installation ? (32 bit on 64 bit processor and operating system sounds like something like "allmost a 64 bits SME server.) (Actually I will expect the difference is not to big, but I haven't tried yet.) 
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 04:02:04 PM by arne »
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Offline imcintyre

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2008, 03:44:06 PM »
Arne;

I have a question about a remark you made re not seeing practical application of sme server-gateway inside vmware. On reading one the other threads, I inferred that this setup was ideal because you could clone your server, experiment and test the new set up. If it works good, if not you just revert back to the old set up. If you got a setup that was the "best" you could clone it onto another machine.

Now I know that the other thread did not specify a server-gateway set up but it seems to be the most useful. I am curious if someone has it working. Any thoughts?

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2008, 04:32:45 PM »
The virtual server-gateway inside the real server-gateway did start up for me, and I was able to access it from the internal virtual hub, but I was not able to make it communicate to lan or to internet, but yes it can be used for som kind of testing. (Other users might have obtained more functionality from the virtual server-gateway than me.)

Personally I think that the SME server-gateway is quite well suited to act as a host system, while the server-only variant is the best one to be running as a guest operating system, bridged over to the lan adapter.) (Becuse this is compatible with the SME firewall and it can give access to and from lan and internet like any lan server or client.)

From the Vmware documentation I can see that Vmware on Windows has some fine greined network configuration tools that is not on the Linux variant. If I should try to build up an environment for testing virtual gateways, etc I think I would have used Windows XP for this.

The virtual sme server-only is a very good alternative for testing (allmost) all kind of new contribs and to add on new functionality without messing up or affecting the host operating system in any way.

I am rather new to this stuff and other users might have an different opinoin.

I think that the sme server-gateway and the sme server-only is both good platforms for virtualization, but that the server-only connected via a bridge is the usable virtual installation.

I might see it different later on. 
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Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2008, 10:34:07 PM »
*****************

The first Ubuntu 64 installation with vmware server crashed when running a 32 bit Linux kernel, so I installed Ubuntu 32 with vmware and made some testing running SME server under Ubuntu 32/Vmserver 1.0.3.

After this testing I made a new attemt to use Ubuntu 64 again, but when starting a virtual 32 bit Linux kernel it crashed again with the message of incompability with my hardware (Sempron 64, S754)

My general conclusion is this:

Qualitative there is no difference if you run Vmware on a SME gateway or at a dedicated Ubuntu server. The avalable functions and the way you can use the virtualizaion is exately and identically the same. (Exept for performace). (And the functions you have available via the Vmware console are the same.)

Is there enybody on this forum that think that this conclusion is not correct ? It would be interssitng to know what the differences are, if there are any at all.
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Offline william_syd

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2008, 10:51:42 PM »
If I should try to build up an environment for testing virtual gateways, etc I think I would have used Windows XP for this.

Last time I looked vmware-server in not supported on WinXP as a host. It does work however.

fine greined network configuration tools that is not on the Linux variant.

Such as? Reference please.


I think that the sme server-gateway and the sme server-only is both good platforms for virtualization, but that the server-only connected via a bridge is the usable virtual installation.


I ocasionaly run a server-gateway sme guest on a server-only sme host for testing. Guest wan bridged to host lan. Guest lan to custom vmnet switch. An additional XP guest is also connected to the custom vmnet switch. All guest machines have internet connectivity.
Regards,
William

IF I give advise.. It's only if it was me....

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2008, 11:34:44 PM »
About XP and Vmware server: I'm using 2 or 3 Vmware server installations at the moment, one at the sme gateway, one at a test server with different operating systems and one at my XP Workstation.

About fine grained control: I can see that there is something on the vindows wariant that is not in the Linux variant, but I have not fully tested it. I have seen som descriptions of these differences in the Vmware documentation, I wonder if it was not page 162 in the Virtual Machine Guide and further on.

About a virtual gateway: I was thinking about something like your description, and I tried to test it out on the real gateway, but for reasons I do not fully understand the virtual gateway lost internet connection, when natted in the one end and connected to the virtual hub in the other end. It was not a problem to connect to the virtual gateway from a virtual client on the virtual hub, but no internet connection via the nat connection.

Next: Will try to do some tests woth Centos 5.1 as houst, but I'm afraid my testserver is to poor (for the 64 bit things). Will the try to set up a dedicated Windows test host server to figure out differences between Linux and Windows, as host systems.
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Offline kruhm

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2008, 06:26:14 AM »
Real quick, have you tried XEN?

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2008, 12:02:37 PM »
I belive I innstalled it by acceident when testing Vmware at Centos 5.1 (by selecting support for virtualization), but I have not testet it. Do you know some intersting info ?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 12:04:40 PM by arne »
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Offline imcintyre

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2008, 01:41:43 PM »
I was looking at their site trying to figure it out and I had a hell of a time. My interest was related to another posting re "Openbravo".

If your interested, don't spend too much time here; http://www.citrixxenserver.com/Pages/default.aspx

I got a bit further here; http://xen.org/  But the manual, for me, wasn't exactly a model of clarity. Especially the "prerequisites", not exactly a how to for the linux challenged. At that point I bailed.

The wikipedia article claims that quite a few linux OS ship with support already, I'm tempted to look again.

Anyways if you know something more or I missed something in the above, let us know. Maybe start another post so this doesn't get tooo far off track.

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2008, 03:25:54 PM »
Thanks for the info about and link to xen. I found their manual here: http://tx.downloads.xensource.com/downloads/docs/user/

It does not look like xen has a admin console or the wab based console like that the one of Vmware. (Is the Xen alternative a shell based console ?)

It would be instresting to test later on but firts impression is that this is a "newer" and not so developed produckt like Vmware when it comes to userfriendliness.

This information video from Xen is very informative, about Xen an about virtualization in general:
http://xen.org/media/xen/player.html

Some more info on xen on Ubuntu: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Xen

By the way, managed in the end to come up with Vmware running on a 64 bit operating system on the Sempron 2800 while using Centos 5.1 ..
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 05:58:33 PM by arne »
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Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2008, 04:06:18 PM »
Temporary conclusion after testing Vmware server on SME 7.3, Ubuntu 7.10 32 bit and Centos 5.1, 64 Bit, on relatively low end hardware (Athlon 4600 dual core, 4 Gig and Sempron 2800, 1 Gig).

1. SME server is far the most easy platform to get started with server virtualization due to the Vmware contrib.

2. Server virtualization works fine for the SME server when running as server-gateway and as server-only. For server virtualization it should be used bridge mode as the only comunication alternative. (The other alternatives is more confusing than usable.)

3. There is qualitatively no diffrence at all when it comes to how a Vmware virtualization works on a SME 7.3, a Ubuntu 7.10 or a Centos 5.1 Via the Vmware console you will have access to the identicaly same functions and "touch and feel" is idetically the same.

4. For low end hardware there is no difference in performance.

5. When doing the bridge mode comunication the virtual installations are 100 % compatible with the existing SME firewall and forwarding mechanism, so that the virtual installation will behave like any other lan server or client.

6. Virtualization will as a general rule be less effective than running the actual server process natively in the host operating system. Virtualization will consume more memory and (some) more cpu cycles than doing the same process natively. On the orther hand virtualization gives a bether "modularity" where it is possible to perform task that is different from the rest of the system (like a Windows client) and to do testing (of contribs) with little or no impact on the host operating system.

7. Virtualization makes it very easy to do a backup, as you can just make a copy of the complete virtual installation. (Like the Astlinux that fills only 68 Mb)

8. The implementation of Asterisk and iptelephony on the SME server can also be done via virtualization. For the Astlinux there is a prebuildt Vmware image that works perfectly. (The VM alternative.)

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=170462&package_id=194573

9. Virtualization with Vmware server on SME server fits very well with the underlaying SME server philosophy as it will increase the ability to keep the host operating system simple and easy to manage, while new and customized functions (like a buildt in Windows client) is implemented via virtualization.

10. There is reasons and arguments to believe that virtualization via Vmware on SME 7.3 could also work well in a production enviroment.

11. My opinion: Vmware nat and Vmware private network should be deselected during installation/configuration. Bridging should be selected as the only alternative for network connection. Vmware web interface should not be installed. Reason: To keep changes and impact to the host operating system down to a minimum.


Am I right ? I'm courious if there is other testers/users/learners that have other ideas about this :)
(Just trying to learn and to understand.)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 04:46:52 PM by arne »
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Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2008, 01:37:39 AM »
I used some test and tries to get the Vmware installed on the 64 Bit Centos 5.1.

After I finished, I found a quite easy guide on the net that summs up what I actually did to make it working:

Step 1: Download VMWare Server
wget VMware-server-1.0.3-44356.i386.rpm

Step 2: Install vmware server
rpm -ivh VMware-server-1.0.3-44356.i386.rpm

Step 3: Install required files / libraries
yum install libXtst-devel libXrender-devel xinetd

Step #4: Configure VMWARE server
vmware-config.pl

Correction: The rpm that can be downloaded from the Vmware page has a slightly different revision.

If anyone like to try out SME 7.3 running on Centos 5.1, I guess this procedure will work.

http://www.jeremycole.com/blog/2007/07/26/installing-vmware-server-on-centos-5-64-bit/
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guest22

Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2008, 07:41:00 AM »
Step 2: Install vmware server
rpm -ivh VMware-server-1.0.3-44356.i386.rpm

Sure you don't want to use yum localinstall instead of rpm -Ivh?

Offline william_syd

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2008, 10:03:37 AM »

Correction: The rpm that can be downloaded from the Vmware page has a slightly different revision.


All revisions are still available.

wget http://download3.vmware.com/software/vmserver/VMware-server-1.0.4-56528.i386.rpm
wget http://download3.vmware.com/software/vmserver/VMware-server-1.0.3-44356.i386.rpm
wget http://download3.vmware.com/software/vmserver/VMware-server-1.0.2-39867.i386.rpm
wget http://download3.vmware.com/software/vmserver/VMware-server-1.0.1-29996.i386.rpm
wget http://download3.vmware.com/software/vmserver/VMware-server-1.0.0-28343.i386.rpm


Some people have found this helpful when installing on other Linux versions.

Update Any

Quote from: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?p=2900261#post2900261
The vmware-any-any-update is an update for VMWare 3,4,5 or 6 workstation or player and for VMWare-server so they work with the latest version of the OS.

Regards,
William

IF I give advise.. It's only if it was me....

Offline imcintyre

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2008, 04:08:05 PM »
Arne;

Thx for detailing your work. I am not familiar with the chips you mention. I am running a P4 1.8 with 768Meg, would you have any concerns re this. Yes I will back up first.

I also noticed that someone detailed the install instructions on the wiki. When I looked this issue before I found it less than clear.
Thx to whomever.

Ian

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2008, 04:30:50 PM »
RequestedDeletion and william_syd -> Thans for corrections. It's allways a good idea to keep information as accurate as possible.

imcintyre -> I would believe that your hardware can do Virtualization based on one SME 7.3 as host and SME 7.3 as guest and one Astlinux as well, because the last one is small. I guess that you can install more virtual machines as long as you do not start them all up at one time.

By the way I think the Vmware server rpm that I used and that did work with the Centos 5.1/64 and the Sempron prosessor was the newest revision of the Vmware server.

Somewhere above someone mentioned the keyword firewall.

Just some ideas - what about setting up a Centos 5.1 as a gateway and let it run it as a wireless access point as well, and then let there be a bridged SME 7.3 inside that Centos gateway. That would leave the firewalling and the management of the wireless access point to the Centos host system while all ordinary server functions is maintained with the virtual SME 7.3 Could this be a solution to the 3'rd nic problem, the wireless access point problem etc ? Just an idea. (I think that the Vmware docomentation does not support wireless networking, but I would believe that this is not a problem if the wireless networking is maintained by the underlaying Centos host system allone.)

Arne. 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 04:42:53 PM by arne »
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Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2008, 12:21:45 AM »
Howto for virtualizing with Xen..

To be get some bether refference and to see how virtualization can be performed in different ways I decided that I liked to try out Xen as virtualization platform as well. There was a lot of howtos on the net that did not work, but there was also one that did work:

http://www.howtoforge.com/centos_5.0_xen

I'm running Centos 5.1/32 as guest operating system on host system Centos 5.1/64 and hardware Sempron 2800 / 1 Gig

First impression of Xen is that it might be more a some kind of "datacenter tool" doing things a bit "low level and effective" than really a SME environment tool. I guess that the Vmware server will be a bether "tool" for the SME server.

Exept for trying a number of howto's that did not work the one that did work, the istallation and use of Xen was quite easy. I just selected "support for virtualization" when installed Centos 64 and then followed the howto that did work.

Will try to look into how Xen relates to Linux firewalling compared to Vmware and will try to install SME73 under Xen.
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Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2008, 03:09:22 PM »
As this tread might develop to be a filled up with some different content (by me..), I will try to sum up a little bit.

Virtualization can be done in different ways these days, and there is a lot of oportunities. Its possible to run a SME 7.3 under a host system with Gnome, with wirtualization based on Xen or on Vmware, you can apply a wireless adapter to cannect to a wireless network, you can set up a wireless access point in the host system that is connected to your virtual SME server, etc, etc.

There is actually a lot of things that can be done, and that will work in the one way or the other.

OK, but then the very easy variant of virtualization that anyone can do without a lot of work, and that will work strightforward and easy, allmost as plug and play:

When it comes to user friendliness and flexibility the Vmware server is clearly the best alternative.

To make a simple and easy to use installation there is 3 options:

1. To set up a SME 7.3 as a server only and install Vmware according to this wiki: http://wiki.contribs.org/Vmware

2. To set it up as server-gateway and still use http://wiki.contribs.org/Vmware

3. To set up Vmware on a Centos 5.1 32 or 64 bit server according to updated prosedure beneeth.

If alternative 1 or 2 is selected it will give an aeay as possible instllation to select bridge 0 as the only way of communication and to deselect nat and private network during installation. It will also make it more easy to use the virtual installations to not use the standard location on hd but rather some easy address like /vm

4. For all variants of installation the most easy and practical way to controll the virtual installation, with also a minimum impact on the host system, is via a common Vmware console installation on a Windows machine.

Updated prosedure for installing Vmware on Centos 5.1/64, tested just now:

<Basic Centos 5.1/64 installation>
yum update
<reboot, because there will be a new kernel !!>
<If no reboot there will be a lot of problems !!>
yum install gcc
yum install kernel-devel*
yum install libXtst-devel libXrender-devel
yum install xinetd
<download vmware server rpm>
 rpm -ivh VMware-server-1.0.4-56528.i386.rpm
vmware-config.pl


Anouther thing.. The virtual SME installation can be backed up complete with all its datas. It is then just to copy over the backup image into the /vm position and boot it up.

The most easy and practical way to handle the Wireless access point problem is to just run a ordinary hardware access point on lan with a proper encryption system (not wep). It can also be done by implementing a wireless access point function into the host system, but this will make system more difficult to maintain etc.

Xen is until now the alternative for those who have time to make things a bit more difficult, to optain a some bether performance.

And one more thing I forgot:

If you are running the Vmware server on a AMD 64 bit dual processor and you select the Virtual SME as a two processor core installation, there will be a some kind of "overhead" that will make the host system processor to run at 15-18 % processor load at idle. (At least at my machine.) If you change the setup of the SME guest to be a "single core installation" the idle load on the processor wil drop to something like 0.2 % The Virtual SME should be sat up as a virtual single core installation.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2008, 03:55:37 PM by arne »
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