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General setup question, and backup

Offline dtech

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General setup question, and backup
« on: June 07, 2006, 02:23:11 PM »
Hi All;

I'm a linux guy that has deployed my first SME server [7rc2] in a small office whose network I manage. They have XP on the desktops, and don't care what's on the server so long as it works, and it does. ;-)

The reason I stated I'm a linux guy is that I have done other networks with linux on the desktops (my own network comes to mind), and I use NFS to share home directories. I find this to be a good solution relative to backups, because backing up the home directory on the server backs up everyone's data and settings. There is no need to go out to each desktop to collect its data for backup. The desktops don't even need to be left on obviously - the data is always on the server.

I'd really like an explanation from a Windows guy about how and if something like what I've described above is possible with SME. In the SME deployment I described above I've relocated everyone's My Documents directory to their corresponding user/files directory on the SME server. But the My Documents directory in Windows doesn't store all of the information and configuration stuff that is in a user's home directory in linux (and therefore, in the event of disaster on the XP workstation, some data could be lost).

I've read discussion here in the forums about the SME backup situation, and the solutions available seem to deal mostly with going out to the desktops to pull the data to be backed up onto the server. I can't avoid thinking about how NFS/home directory sharing makes this whole issue a moot point, and how it would be nice to be able to acheive the same thing in a mixed network. If there was/is a way to do this, then the backup discussion could move on to different ways to get the backups off of the server and onto some other media, like DVD, external HD, backup server, whatever.

I also wonder if what I'm talking about can be achieved with Roaming Profiles, something that I know nothing about yet.

Thanks in avance for replies,

-Pete

Offline raem

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Re: General setup question, and backup
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2006, 02:56:46 PM »
dtech

Enable roaming profiles
...

Offline mmccarn

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General setup question, and backup
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2006, 03:33:58 PM »
You could simply enable  "Roaming User Profiles".  Here's the Microsoft Technet article on "Configuring Roaming User Profiles"

However, given the warning on the SME "workgroup" tab ("You should leave this set to the default of No unless you have experience...", and the further details added on the MSDN blog "oldnewthing" entry "Beware of Roaming User Profiles" I'd avoid using them unless your users a) don't really roam, and b) all have identically configured workstations (same hardware drivers, same OS version, same applications)

I usually create an unsatisfactory combination of moving "My Documents" to a network share (as you have done) and some other backup system to copy the users' important data and settings to the server.  I then schedule the workstation backup individually on each workstation using the Task Scheduler.

Backup systems I've used include: Insync from Dillobits Software, xcopy and ntbackup (both included w/ Windows).  Microsoft has a program called Robocopy that is part of the Windows Server 2003 Resource Kit Tools that is designed to synchronize data between two directories, can be installed on Windows XP, and can be extensively scripted.  This tool, with the proper script, could be used to maintain backups of your worktation data on the server, which could then be backed up...

It looks as though you could use "gpedit.msc" - the "Group Policy" plugin for the Microsoft Management Console - to create logon/logoff scripts for your users or startup/shutdown scripts for your workstations that execute some sort of data backup or synchronization.  I'm not sure if this works on Windows XP, or if this file is included w/ XP or if I got it elsewhere...

I have seen an elaborate "logoff" script used for this purpose in conjunction with xxcopy and some scripting that tracks how long it has been since the last "backup", allowing optional backups at each logoff but forcing a backup at least once every 7 days.

As you might guess, I've been struggling with this issue, too.  I'd love to have a simple system for reliable workstation backup that does not rely on keeping entire copies of all users' C: drives, that backs up Outlook data files (including the "nickname" file), favorites, "C:\program files\intuit\", and alerts me when someone creates "C:\Vital Data" to hold their really important data...  I'm intrigued by EMC's Content Addressed Storage which would allow me to keep full backups of all systems without wasting the space used by actual full backups (it makes one copy of "explorer.exe" with a given date, time, size and checksum, then just points to that copy for all systems that are using the same copy...)

Keep us posted on how you work things out!

Offline CharlieBrady

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Re: General setup question, and backup
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2006, 04:51:09 PM »
Quote from: "dtech"
I can't avoid thinking about how NFS/home directory sharing makes this whole issue a moot point, and how it would be nice to be able to acheive the same thing in a mixed network.


The core issue here is that Windows (and the whole collection of Windows applications) does not behave the same way that linux does. For a start, user preferences are stored in various parts of the Windows registry (sometimes even in the correct (per user) section!). Roaming profiles is allegedly the answer, but beware bloated profiles, and hardware/software incompatibilities which might be propagated from machine to machine via profiles.

Offline dtech

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General setup question, and backup
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2006, 02:26:05 AM »
I'm feeling a little better knowing that others are struggling with the same issues. ;-) I'll take a look at the roaming profiles option. For the purposes of getting the important data onto the server it may be my answer. And I take the point about it being best if the people don't actually roam. NFS works best this way too.

My approach with this customer is not to worry so much about a single XP desktop disaster that renders the machine useless; I'm more concerned with preserving the business data. I try to get the important data into my domain, that is, on the server.

In my experience it is easier to start new with Windows than it is to fix, even if there are backups of configuration files. I also outsource email and hosting, and the main application in the office I'm talking about is web based. If one person's desktop dies, they can be 90% functional in minutes on a basic Windows install with Office 97. I have a standby machine ready to go for just such an event. I'd be interested to know whether this approach scales well in bigger networks than the ones I work with. I know every situation is different, but is it actually beneficial to attempt to backup enough data and configuration info on a Windows workstation and to attempt to restore one than it is to start fresh?

Now to backup. This server does not have a tape drive, it has a double sided DVD burner. For the moment this is OK for the amount of data they have to backup. I wonder how many others are doing this.

I do cron tar backups of the user home ibays, the data ibays, and the /etc directory every night using a modified version of this script. The backups are stored on a removable hard drive. I burn every monthly backup onto a DVD and it goes off site. I leave a year's worth of backups on the removable hard drive.

If you look at the aforementioned script you'll see that it is not perfect because I only have the last seven days of backup data. I think that if I needed a file that was created twelve days ago and then deleted ten days ago it would be gone, assuming I was two weeks into the month. I may need to modify the script to keep the weekly full backups. Maybe it's impossible to have a backup of everything...

I've also not had to do an SME server rebuild yet and I'm wondering if I'd have enough to do one with what I'm backing up right now. I guess the feature in SME6 for creating the restore disk is gone, so what steps can be taken to prepare for server failure?

I really appreciate the thoughtful replies. Thanks,

-Pete

Offline kruhm

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General setup question, and backup
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2006, 11:59:37 PM »
I usually use folder redirection for the important parts of the profile rather than roaming them.

Search on google for folder redirection and you'll see some setups like this one:
http://isg.ee.ethz.ch/tools/realmen/det/skel.en.html

Or get the official samba info here:
http://wiki.samba.org/index.php/Samba_&_Windows_Profiles

Beware of M$ docs as they don't give you the whole story. Because of this some custom tools are available. For example, you can get an ADM template and test it out here:
http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/tools/14324.html

Offline harshl

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General setup question, and backup
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2006, 06:36:01 PM »
I agree with the previous posting. I use group policies to enforce folder redirection. I redirect the "desktop" and "my documents" to there home directories. This is much less complex than roaming profiles. Using this method you can redirect to the "application data" folder which if the developer has spent to right there application well will save all personal settings to this folder, so you be getting settings as well. However I will tell you, this will not be even close to 100% of the users settings.
The following is pretty good documentation on folder redirection.
http://www.windowsdevcenter.com/pub/a/windows/2004/08/24/folder_redirect.html

Good luck,

-Landon
-Landon

Offline kruhm

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General setup question, and backup
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2006, 10:43:13 PM »
That's an interesting article. I've always liked the idea of OFFLINE FILES but my experience with OFFLINE FILES hasn't been terrific. It seems to take too long even with a small amount of data. So I usually diable them.

Also, my experience with the redirecting the APPDATA causes too much lag for some apps.

I found the following setup which includes ROAMING and REDIRECTION to be insteresting as well:
http://www.css.taylor.edu/~nehresma/samba.html

Also note that the GPO doesn't show all the possible redirected values. You need to adjust the ADM file to show everything. The actual list of redirected values is located at:
HKEY_CURRENT_USER/Software/Microsoft/Windows/CurrentVersion/Explorer/User Shell Folders