Topic: SoGo / eGroupware / Group-Office

[Stefano]

@Stefano,

Big MySQL-database ?  ... Perhaps if you store attachements in the database (the howto doesn't, but you could) ?  I don't know any reports of problems with backup/restoring zarafa-databases.  I never had any problems with backup/restoring the zarafa-database from one server to another.  Do you know any reports of backup/restore-problems ?

no, attachments were stored in FS.. but if you have say 20 users and you keep all the emails for years, zarafa db dumb can be big.. some GB, as I said.. this is not a problem "per se" (I use mysql at work with GBs of data) but.. but during db dump (it can take minutes, many.. 20) db is locked.. and email services (on zarafa side) could suffer..

I would add that make Zarafa's own daemons work seamlessy with SME's ones could be tricky..

Only the zarafaclient (for the Outlook-connection) is not OSS.

this is enough for SME, isn't it? without zarafaclient zarafa is nothing else than a webmail, as horde..

  Do the other 'exchange-replacements' have a OSS-outlook-connection ?

Sogo (without SAMBA4 - when in SME9 ?) even isn't a exchange-replacement, because it doesn't support Outlook.  And even with SAMBA4 there are a lot of 'known issues' ...

SOGo is a full exchange replacement without the problems of exchange..
Samba4 is the future, is open, widely and actively developed.
SOGo is open, supported (Inverse is a big company) and actively developed, using (and this is a pro) standard way and tools: MLs, a bug tracker (Zarafa adopted a BT only recently, before bugs were reported into forums)..

Conclusion : if you want Outlook, you need Zarafa.

since we are talking about the future (not the present), this is not true

Other Linux-SmallBusiness-Servers already integrated Zarafa as there groupware-sollution : ClearOS, Collax, Univention and Zentyal ... all ZARAFA-implementations ...

ok, should we act like them?
will zarafa work with.. say 1000 users?
I know SME will (a work mate has 2 SME working with hundred, thousand users), SOGo will.. EGW will.. because they all use the standard daemons and the standard maildir format..
SME's standard backup will work without any kind of modification and without any kind of "wait, I'm dumping all my big blob db" time waste..

will zarafa make possible to restore a single mail from SME's standard backup? I doubt.

here we are discussing about the future and the default webmail/groupware application..
I'm quite sure Zarafa won't be one of the possible choices..
SOGo will likely be..

I was a convinced Zarafa's fan, I had used it in the past.. its webmail is superb.. but management is almost like the exchange one..
integration on SME will suffer any time they change something.. and this is not acceptable for a mail server

finally, we all should remember that:
- every contrib is created for free in free time.. if we want a full integration of Zarafa in SME a hard work must be done and there are no human resources
- installation, configuration and maintenance must be "easy" enough for every SME user, exactly like now with Horde..
- backup and restore must be bullet proof

another 2€c of mine

[Stefano]

@Frederik:

since it would be interesting talking about SME, Zarafa, SOGo etc with numbers...

I have a small customer: 10 users, 10 email account.. all accessed via imap, locally..

some accounts are "global" (info@domain) and accessed at the same time from all users..

numbers: about 90GB of mail (last 3 years), about 280000 email messages..
server is a small HP ProLiant ML310 G5p, 4 gb ram..

Code: [Select]

top - 11:25:52 up 108 days, 15:08,  1 user,  load average: 0.36, 0.29, 0.20

can you please give us some numbers about Zarafa? thank you

[frifri]

@Stefano

In the future ?  ... Perhaps !

Charles2008 started this topic :

We are currently 3 very active users (photos, file sharing, emailing, websites, etc) in a small start-up business.

He needs a solution now !  Why should he choose SOGO now ?  In the very far future perhaps SOGO will fully support Outlook, perhaps after a very long time the 'known issues' will be solved. 

There are very large implementations of ZARAFA, look at the references on there site.  The commercial editions of ZCP provide a brick-level backup tool.

For small/medium businesses, the community/free-editions of ZARAFA will do great.

***

About the other post of Stefano, about numbers :
It is difficult to compare numbers when other services are running. That said, your numbers are very good

[Stefano]

In the future ?  ... Perhaps !

Charles2008 started this topic :

He needs a solution now ! 

you are right, indeed..

my attention was caught by

I came across the SME9 'Wish list' page yesterday ( http://wiki.contribs.org/SME_Server_wishlist) and was intrigued by the following:

    o Decide which webmail should be in core, if any
                   
        Zarafa oh yé Stephdl (talk)
        Horde 5.x - would make the most sense as a direct upgrade to 8.x and has free sync to Outlook via Funambol (David Harper)
        eGroupware It will be my choice --Larieu (talk) 03:35, 6 February 2013 (MST) - I think this is a good starting point  - http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/reviews/7289/1

Why should he choose SOGO now ? 

he could choose SOGo now, it's a smart solution but it would not answer his question/solve his problem..
if he needs a groupware with fileserving and other features, neither SOGo or Zarafa will help him, he must use something different (EGW, I suppose)

In the very far future perhaps SOGO will fully support Outlook, perhaps after a very long time the 'known issues' will be solved. 

"far future" in IT could be days.. so, don't be so pessimistic

There are very large implementations of ZARAFA, look at the references on there site.

indeed, I'm sure..
as I said, I know Zarafa.. I'm in touch with one of the italian reseller.. some time ago, we had a conversation to find a way to sell SME with Zarafa onboard..
but he finally agreed with me that SME is not a bare Centos distro, is something more.. and integration colud be tricky
I would add that a basic SME server with 100 users will need far few cpu/ram/hd resources than one with Zarafa (mysql activity is I/O intensive)
since EGW/SOGo and other solutions use SME standards (daemons, maildir ecc) there's almost no other layer/daemons running

  The commercial editions of ZCP provide a brick-level backup tool.

the free version of SME backup and restore feature is already here, is FREE, is rock solid/bullet proof, can restore a single email and works with SOGo/EGW and so on without (almost) any modification

For small/medium businesses, the community/free-editions of ZARAFA will do great.

but it works well with outlook only (with the connector).. Zarafa's imap with MacOSX had (I can't say has) issues in the past.
and if you need more than 3 connection, you must pay.. and install something on your client.. and keep using outlook and its pst files.. mmmh.. life can be much better..

About the other post of Stefano, about numbers :
It is difficult to compare numbers when other services are running. That said, your numbers are very good

it was an example.. I'm sure that with zarafa and the same iron things could be (very) different

[frifri]

if he needs a groupware with fileserving and other features, neither SOGo or Zarafa will help him, he must use something different (EGW, I suppose)

There is integration between Zarafa and Owncloud : https://community.zarafa.com/pg/plugins/project/16024/developer/h44z/webapp-owncloud-attachment-plugin

And Dropbox
https://community.zarafa.com/pg/blog/read/14505/webapp-the-dropbox-plugin

[Stefano]

thank you

[guest22]

There is integration between Zarafa and Owncloud : https://community.zarafa.com/pg/plugins/project/16024/developer/h44z/webapp-owncloud-attachment-plugin

And Dropbox
https://community.zarafa.com/pg/blog/read/14505/webapp-the-dropbox-plugin

And another integration with an essential business tool:
http://www.zarafa.com/wiki/index.php/Setting_up_ejabberd_server_for_Zarafa_with_LDAP_integration

Interesting thread guys!

guest

[Stefano]

Interesting thread guys!

indeed..

I repeat: Zarafa is and will be only a contrib.. it will not be the default SME's email/groupware default application

[guest22]

I repeat: Zarafa is and will be only a contrib.. it will not be the default SME's email/groupware default application

That makes me wonder by what authority you can make such a statement please?

[frifri]

That makes me wonder by what authority you can make such a statement please?

Indeed, i should only consider SOGO on SME if SAMBA4 is implemented in SME !

[Daniel B.]

Zarafa replaces a lot of core components in the mail stack, that's why it should stay an external contrib. I don't want zarafa because I personnaly want standard components (SMTP, MTA, IMAP) and plug another webmail on top of that. SOGo does a great work with this (it can use the available SMTP, IMAP, and LDAP without any modification). And even without samba4, SOGo is still very usefull, especially with the various Thunderbird extensions. For the official webmail, I'd vote SOGo, but it could stay as a contrib. Anyway, as long as Zarafa (or any other solution) needs to replace big parts of the existing softwares allready available on SME, I'd strongly vote against it being integrated on a default install. I'm quite sure other devs have the same opinion.

Regards, Daniel

[Stefano]

That makes me wonder by what authority you can make such a statement please?

it's not authority, it's experience and SME's specific knowledge..

as Daniel correctly pointed out, Zarafa integration could be achieved in 2 ways:
- doubling daemons (i.e. using SME's natives and Zarafa's ones in conjuction)
- replacing SME's services with Zarafa's ones..

the first way is how things work nowadays, and it's not a good solution; everyone with a minimun experience as system administrator should know why..
the second is, in few words, unpraticable.

Finally: HF, please, don't take everything as an offence, thank you

[Stefano]

Indeed, i should only consider SOGO on SME if SAMBA4 is implemented in SME !

when samba4 will be used/integrated/available for Centos6, it will be ported to SME..
actually you can use SOGo without outlook integration and, my personal opinion is that we all shoud work to educate users to work without outlook..

[guest22]

Finally: HF, please, don't take everything as an offence, thank you

I didn't, did I? If so, my apologies.

[frifri]

Anyway, as long as Zarafa (or any other solution) needs to replace big parts of the existing softwares allready available on SME, I'd strongly vote against it being integrated on a default install. I'm quite sure other devs have the same opinion.

@Daniel, Stefano
Could you be more specific (for everyone's information), witch parts are doubled ?  Do you mean Pop3/IMAP ?
Zarafa uses the Qmail/qpsmtpd.