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Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.

Offline william_syd

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2008, 12:22:56 AM »
Problem about running virtual servers on gateway finally solved (I hope and believe).

What apear is the case it that the Vmware contrib by default installs one Vmware nat connection related to the external network adapter and one bridge related to the internal network adapter.

Are you sure the contrib does this or is it caused by accepting the default answers when running vmware-config.pl ?
Regards,
William

IF I give advise.. It's only if it was me....

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2008, 03:03:18 AM »
Actually I'm sure that this was two of the questions when running vmware-config.pl so actually it might not be a "part" of the contrib, it is actually the default answers in this config script, to set up one nat and one bridge. So you are right  :-D

As I think the vmware nat connection is more confusing than neccessary, for the SME server, so I was actually thinking about running the script again to deselect it. (To make things as easy and well structured as possible and to remove any unneccessary modifications relatet to the internet connected adapter.)

I first tried to see if it was some vmware configuration file to deactivate the nat connection, but I could not find that .. There is something in /etc/vmware but don't know if it is adviceable to edit here ..

The "bridged to the lan" alternative seems to be a good alternative for SME server as it looks like this works perfectly well with the existing firewall, forwarding tools, etc.

By the way it is impressing to se how the vmware server installation handles the boot up sequence when 4 or 5 installations shall get started. I had expected that to slow and messy. But it is not. First the underlaying operating system starts up, like normal, then after this has stabilized, then the first virtual installation comes up, when this has stabilized, the third, etc. It's really well made :)
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 03:11:45 AM by arne »
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Offline william_syd

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2008, 04:54:42 AM »
I first tried to see if it was some vmware configuration file to deactivate the nat connection, but I could not find that .. There is something in /etc/vmware but don't know if it is adviceable to edit here ..

I'm not sure anything needs changing. It would make updating just more difficult.

Prehaps the wiki could be extended to include all possible situations.

Host Config          Guest Config

Server-Gateway   >>  Server-Gateway
Server-Gateway   >>  Server Only
Server Only      >>  Server-Gateway
Server Only      >>  Server Only


By the way it is impressing to se how the vmware server installation handles the boot up sequence when 4 or 5 installations shall get started. I had expected that to slow and messy. But it is not. First the underlaying operating system starts up, like normal, then after this has stabilized, then the first virtual installation comes up, when this has stabilized, the third, etc. It's really well made :)

This is customisable via the console app or the MUI.

Have you looked at the command line tools to manipulate VM's?
Regards,
William

IF I give advise.. It's only if it was me....

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2008, 11:06:08 PM »
No, I don't know about the command line (or vmware script) option. Is there some info somewhere ?

Have got working the "Host:server-gateway, guest:server-only" alternative and the "host: server only, guest: server only" alternatives.

These alternatives works very good with the SME server as both alteratives gives virtual clients or servers that behaves as if they were physical installations located on lan.

I think both those alternatives gives a solution that is quite usable. As an example can be mentioned the Astlinux Asterisk server. You just drag and drop a preconfigured module of 68 Mb and start it up, and if there is any problem, it is just to delete the old virtual server and drag and drop over a new one. If you use the same ip for the virtual server as for the physical server you replace, there is no need for reconfiguring the ip telephony clients at all.

I have not been able to get the virtual sme server-gateway to work yet, and I have some problems to understand how this option can be used in a reasonable way, in a sme server environment.

Anyhow it will still be interesting to look into. I can se that the "Virtual machine guide" has a chapter no 7, page 153, that might explain some of the required theory, but I can not say I understand it copletely, yet: http://www.vmware.com/pdf/server_vm_manual.pdf
« Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 11:08:07 PM by arne »
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Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2008, 05:02:52 PM »
I went trough the Vmware Virtual Machine Guide chapter 7 and made a test installation of a virtual SME server-gateway inside a real SME server gateway. For reasont I dont know it was not possible to make an Internet connection trough the virtual server-gateway. The Virtual server-gateway was not able to comunicate against Internet either. (Could it be a firewalling problem ?) On the other hand the virtual gateway worked for connections from a virtual Windows client.

As I see it, it does not give much sence to run a virtual server-gateway inside a real server-gateway and it did not work (for me) when it come to the internet connection for the virtual server-gateway.

So I concluded that there is realy one reasonable and usable way to run a virtual SME server or any other server as a virtual installation under SME server is as server only and bridged to the internal network adapter for the server gateway, or to the single adapter to a server-only installation.

So I did rerun the Vmware server configuration script, and this time I deselceted the wmnet1 and the wmnet8, so it is only one communication option left, the brige alternative. (wmnet0).

When using the brigdge mode as the only alternative then this gives a kind of virtualization that fits very well with the SME server design philosophy, it is quite simple to use and all virtual installations apears like just ordinary lan server or clients, protected by the SME server-gateway firewall.

It would be interesting to know if there is some other SME users that has some other ideas or some other experiences of how the Vmware virtualization might be used in a best possible way on a SME server.
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Offline imcintyre

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2008, 08:23:44 PM »
Arne;

I have been following the discussion as best I can because this seems a useful concept but I can't fit the trial of it into my time or hardware budget. I am a bit confused by the sme server within sme server idea, but see second question. I do get the idea of being able to clone a system once you have it running virtually

You had written extensively in another post regarding changes to the sme firewall. Does vmware give you the option of running a different firewall program (smoothwall, m0n0, or others) and the sme server in gateway mode and thereby achieving some of your other goals.

It would seem to me that it would be useful to use the smallest possible host operating system and that SME server might not be the best solution as host (not an opinion, a question). Do you have any insight into this? I did try to set up Ubuntu and Automatix install of a virtual environment but did not get very far as the hardware I had was not up to it.

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2008, 11:39:04 PM »
incimtyre ->

In good and bad I like to take one "theme" at the time, to try to find out "everything" about that "theme" at the time. (tree last was Asterisk, Firewall and now Vmware virtualization.)

About hardware: I bought myself a cheap demo used high performance mainboard and a twin core AMD Athlon plus 4 Gig of RAM, that is now rather cheap. I planned it to be my new workstation, but it ended up as the new SME server gateway with virtualization and there is now 3-4 server boxes that does not have any patrticular use any more. My workstation is still the same but everything I do against internet works much quicker than it did use to do (Due to the new speedy proxy).

About firewalling: No, the virtualization consept does not give anything new to "the firewalling theme". (For me.) Theoreticaly it could have been an option to install something like a "virtual Smoothwall" on the SME server and there might also be some ideas about using virtualization to implement the 3'rd NIC, but I do not have to much believe in these ideas (But they still might work.) I'm allmost surprised to find that the exoisting SME firewall support virtualization perfectly as long as you use the bridge mode option.

About platform for virtualization: I was and does think in some of the same directions - is it really reasonable to use the SME server at the host operating system, as it has quite many processess running. I am downloading Ubuntu server just now to do some comperations. What I expect to find, but that have not found yet, is that the nuber of processess does not have much impact on the performance of virtualization as long as these processes does not do much work that will put work on the processors. I don't know yet, but I will expect to find that using a small as possible host operating system will work much simular as using the SME server as the host operatiing system. The SME server will have the advance that you can switch between virtualization and ordinary native server functions as you like to. It can also support selected services natively. By the way I believe that virtualization is the biggest new thing in computing after the Internet, so it is rather intersting to learn this "new" technology.

The good thing about using the SME server as the virtualization platform is that you allways will have the choise, should i run this service "natively" or should it virtualize it (like the asterisk server). I think it is also intersting that you gor the option of running a local Windows or Linux workstation client inside the SME gateway. Combined wirth the free logmein.com service this gives a logon from anywhere without the need og knowing ip address etc. (But the security of this solution might be questioned.)

I will try out Ubuntu as vitualization platform at my old SME box. (AMD Sempron + 1 Gig) One thing I do not completely understand is that I think that the Vmware dokumentation mentions that Vmware server will not support a wireless card if Linux is the host operation system. (But it works with Windows.) If it would work with Ubuntu Linux as the host system, this could have been a intersting option. 

About time: It's not time it is just fun.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2008, 11:41:33 PM by arne »
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Offline imcintyre

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2008, 11:48:27 PM »
This is what I was following before.

Quote
This is getting a bit O.T., but please forgive me for this post! I just want to help this guy out Confused

Quote from: imcintyre on October 15, 2007, 12:03:49 PM
Jumba;

I installed ubuntu 6.0.6 LTS and then tried virtualbox but there was an install error that I couldn't see easily how to resolve.

.....

I also looked at the automatix site but couldn't quite understand what they were getting at or trying to do.



It's amazingly easy to get it installed in Ubuntu!

First of all, Ubuntu 7.10 is scheduled to be released on October 18'th, so you might as well consider upgrading before you continue!

I'll try to explain how to do it in a few steps:

1. Running from your Ubuntu, point Firefox to http://www.getautomatix.com/wiki/index.php?title=Installation and select the correct version for your system.

2. When you click on the .deb file, you will most probably be promted to choose to DL the file to your computer or run the file directly through the Ubuntu package manager. I assume you select to use the package manager.

3. You'll be promted to type your password in order to install the package.

Please do open up the "show details window" during installation, - you'll have to accept some license stuff I think!

4. Now you can find "Automatix" in your system menu.

5. Fire it up, and through Automatix select category "Virtualization", and in that category select "VirtualBox".

6. In Automatix, after selecting "VirtualBox": Click on the button "START"...

Please do open up the "show details window" during installation, - you'll have to accept some license stuff I think!

This way, the installation goes through without any complications.

Good luck!

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2008, 12:08:12 AM »
Thanks. I thought that the Automatix was for the workstation Ubuntu ? (It's not ?)
I googled something here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VMware/Server
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 12:55:03 AM by arne »
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Offline imcintyre

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2008, 12:22:26 AM »
The Ubuntu/automatix install was very simple and completely "GUI" as I recall. I was able to easily install sme server 7.2. The machine I had as spare was old and very very slow so I dropped it to concentrate on my production server.

http://forums.contribs.org/index.php?topic=38805.0

http://www.getautomatix.com/
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 12:27:56 AM by imcintyre »

Offline william_syd

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2008, 12:41:28 AM »
The Ubuntu/automatix install was very simple and completely "GUI" as I recall.

I thought Automatix was frowned upon by the Ubuntu community.
Regards,
William

IF I give advise.. It's only if it was me....

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2008, 12:46:12 AM »
OK.

By the way the Vmware on SME server works perfect, everything is stable, host system, guest systems, Windows, Linux, etc, performace is very good, and there is no issues at all. The virtual Astlinux Asterisk installation also works perfect. (And I think that the Astlinux is the best Asterisk distro that is around.)

The only reason to test out Ubuntu as an alternative host system is to have a refference and something to compare with.
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Offline imcintyre

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2008, 01:16:37 AM »
William;

I found a couple of posts on the Ubuntu website. One indicating that they may be playing nice;

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Automatix/Ubuntu_Team_Collaboration?highlight=%28automatix%29

and another one that they are not;

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AutomatixIssues?highlight=%28automatix%29

Arne;

This might not be practical to pursue. Sorry if I steered you wrong, I was relying on another's advice.

Ian

Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2008, 01:28:05 AM »
No .. some new ideas and suggestions are allways welcome  :)

By the way I forgot to mention (and to think about) one argument when it comes to compare a "minimalistic" host system (like Ubuntu server basic setup) with a more "buildt out" host system (like SME server.)

When the virtual installation is running on a "buildt out" host system and doing it in brigde mode, the virtual installations will have access to and can use all the resources of the host operating system, like dns server, web proxy, ssh tunneling end point, VPN endpont, and the host systems firewall as well.

All of this is running without a bug on the sme server gateway.
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Offline arne

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Re: Vmware - SME Windows virtual client - best practice.
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2008, 04:21:45 AM »
Hardware, testserver: Sempron 64 + 1 GB

Installed Ubuntu for AMD 64. Stright forward, no problems.

Then installed Vmware using a slightly modified procedure found on Ubuntu Wiki:

sudo apt-get install build-essential linux-headers-`uname -r` xinetd ia32-libs
wget http://download3.vmware.com/software/vmserver/VMware-server-1.0.3-44356.tar.gz
wget http://knihovny.cvut.cz/ftp/pub/vmware/vmware-any-any-update115.tar.gz
tar -xzvf VMware-server-1.0.3-44356.tar.gz
tar -xzvf vmware-any-any-update115.tar.gz
sudo cp vmware-any-any-update115/*.tar vmware-server-distrib/lib/modules/source/
cd vmware-server-distrib/
sudo mkdir -p /etc/vmware/ssl
sudo touch /etc/vmware/ssl/rui.key
sudo touch /etc/vmware/ssl/rui.crt
sudo ./vmware-install.pl

All configuration alternatives selected to default. Installed no problem.

Sat new root password on Ubuntu64: sudo root passwd

Logged into Vmserver via windows console. Still no problems.

Tried to install SME 7.3. Vmware server and host operating system crashed.

Tried to install Windows 2000. Worked without a problem.

Tried to install Astlinux. Vmware server and host operating system crashed.

Conclusion: Vmware server on this host and this operating system supports Windows 32 bit systems but not Linux 32 bit systems. Not specificly related to SME 7.3 (The processor or the operating system ??)

Next step: Try to install Ubuntu 7.10 32 bit host system instead.

Comparision until now: All points to SME 7.3 virtual host system, zero points to Ubuntu.  :D
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 04:23:45 AM by arne »
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