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Backup & Restore

Adserg

Backup & Restore
« on: September 10, 2002, 02:14:01 PM »
Does anyone know of a complete backup and restore software/rpms or what ever that give you a graphical interface? If not then that would be my wish.

I find backing up with Default e-smith backup to tape ok, On a personal front i dont like the idea of backing up to a desktop? well maybe thats just me.

But i find doing a restore by typing it in a bit long winded id rather be able to view my backup tape click and select and then restore the file i want.

Ade

Dave Donaldson

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2002, 04:31:53 AM »
e-smith does not, by default, install or run an x-server.

Are you really interested in backing up the e-smith server completely, or are you referring to iBays?

Why not just backup to a Windows workstation using one of many decent and inexpensive programs?

Novastor (tapes, SCSI, file media)  $79 or so.
Handy Backup (no tapes, just CD-R[W] and hard drive files as media) $39 on the net.

dave...

Adrian S

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2002, 01:59:23 PM »
Dave

The backing up part of it i dont really care as long as the data is there, full backup or incremental doesnt matter. I am more interested in being able to visably select the releveant files and restore from a tape on the server..

As a new boy to linux i am catching up fast and am now really looking to make things easier for myself and customers who dont like the idea of copying 180 gig's worth of data to a desktop.

I dont know about you Dave but i find that customer's are really willing to change to a Linux platform, However when you get around to the backup/restore part of it that's when things start to fall down. Like i said i dont mind if the software back's up the total server like the default e-smith flexbackup does, as long as the total data is there. I am simply looking for an rpm which you can possibly allow a  web browse function to selectivly restore individual files from say eg: Dat 24
scsi tape backup. ( Remember the default NT backup/restore function crude but works).

Some of our customers want to take tapes off site alot easier than carring a desktop under your arm.

E-smith is a spot on product and i supose the wish list could go on and on but surley as a data/storage platform an easy means of backup/restore that Mr/Miss/Mrs IT person who ever it is can get to grips with without typing it in or even worse restoring a part of a server that doesnt need restoring by typing it in wrong.

We have shown customers Mandrake and Redhat but it's E-smith that has the intrest for it's simplicity.

Any other opinions for/against would be intresting.

Thanks' Dave for droping me that info appreciate it

Best Regards

Adrian S

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2002, 02:15:50 PM »
SME Server V5 with ServiceLink
User Guide - 5.1
Mitel Networks Corporation

Taper - Backup software for Linux anyone ever tried it?

http://www.e-survey.net.au/taper/

Kelvin

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2002, 01:36:11 PM »
Hi Adrian,

You are probably quite new to SME or at least have not been following the forums much. There is (was ?) a how-to on configuring the standard backup program to be Taper (which ships as part of SME) instead of the default program, flexbackup.

I have used Taper very successfully in the past (still do in some installations). I've also stated before that given a choice between Taper and flexbackup for the client to use, 9 out of 10 will choose Taper. The big setback at the moment is that the current stable version does not support backups over 4GB (being 32bit based). The new version being worked on will but is not ready.

Most will agree that 4GB in this day and age is tiny and not very useful. However, it is not totally useless either. As I've stated before, I still use Taper in some installations. These would be sites that usually only use SME as a mailserver and internet gateway and possibly just for an occasional file storage facility. Backing up to desktop is not something a lot of client sites want to do (the less they have to interact with the server, the better). 4GBs in these installations is ample. And this also a great excuse to reuse some of the older tape drives out there (some companies actually still have them, usually having superceded them with newer drives in their main servers) which may not have the capacities of todays backup monsters.

Just my 2 bits.

Kelvin

nick

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2002, 08:13:02 AM »
Hi all,
I've been using flexbackup for a while and agree with you all.I have an issue with it not listing all files from it's  list.log see general phorum  " flexbackup view contnents"
I've tried Taper as well, a great free product. I could be wrong but there is no ability to set it to backup automatically. Can any one tell me if it is possible and how.
Regards
Nick

Kelvin

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2002, 12:52:01 PM »
Hi Nick,

There used to be a howto on configuring Taper as your normal backup program instead of flexbackup. Taper can be configured to backup automatically but not to restore automatically (no big deal, just use the GUI-like interface, it's fairly intuitive, which was the whole idea).

Unfortunately, because of the hoo-hah over not being able to backup past 4GB (So what ? As long as you are aware of the limitation, it's up to you how you use it, isn't it ?), Darrell May, the author of the how-to has decided to withdraw the how-to as he feels that nobody should be using Taper anymore due to that limitation.

While I don't agree with his principle, it is his how-to and I suppose he is entitled to do with it as he pleases. The howto still appears in the list of howtos, but the link is dead. That's the other thing I don't really agree with. Although I've said it's his howto and he can do with it as he pleases, I believe that any howto that's been contributed to the e-smith community should stay there, much like a growing knowlegebase. Does not matter if the info gets outdated by new releases of SME, etc. At most, the author may at his discretion submit an updated how-to but not actually remove the how-to altogether.

Oh well, we who depend on others ..... beggars can't be choosers.

Kelvin

nick

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2002, 02:32:57 PM »
Thanks Kevin,
 I appreciate the update on taper and agree with you again.
All Info should remain as part of the Knowledge base. Relevant or not.
 It just might be that one thing a person is looking for, thats what this .org is all about....isn't it?
Regards
Nick

Rod

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2002, 10:27:08 AM »
You can use Arkeia backup.  Free version backs up one linux server + 2 win workstations.  Full GUI, pro features and performance.  Needs X.  Takes about 5 minutes to install.  

www.arkeia.com.

Rob Wellesley

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2002, 03:40:29 AM »
Here's what we do

For Recovery we Install hotswap RAID1 drive bays and rotate three drives - one off site. This is a real no brainer for a client

For file recovery - rsync ibays to spare drive space (plenty these days) on the back of a client PC. Use a hidden share and with a Win2k client add a backup user and password to that PC

Also - we install a Harddrive on the Server (post install) and rsync all data to that once a day - make smb.conf changes so the whole drive is a hidden share.

Say good by to the need for tape alt all (unless archiving is an issue)

rob

Kelvin

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2002, 03:50:18 AM »
Hi Rob,

We do a similar thing with a few sites, except we actually shut down the server before removing a drive out of the hot swap chassis. This way, if we need to restart from the "backup" hard disk, SME does not think it crashed prior to this boot up plus all files including any open databases, etc. are closed and shutdown properly.

This also applies to any MS based or Novell based servers using the same sort of hot swap systems. If you simply removed and replaced a live hard disk in the middle of operation, especially for live database servers, you are more than likely to end up with a database that is corrupt or unusable.

Kelvin

Rob Wellesley

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2002, 04:31:03 AM »
Kelvin wrote:

 we actually
> shut down the server before removing a drive out of the hot
> swap chassis. This way, if we need to restart from the
> "backup" hard disk, SME does not think it crashed prior to
> this boot up plus all files including any open databases,
> etc. are closed and shutdown properly.
>

Excellent point Kelvin - Generally we are only going to use the hotswap for DR recovery (fire, theft, etc.) so it's not so critical that we boot from the drive. However adding a cron > mysql dump to /root is something we will do now re: data base

thanks

(Go the Warriors :-)

Dave Donaldson

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2002, 10:51:20 AM »
Adirian,

I think you missed my point on the removable drive thing for backup.  I don't think toting a PC around was part of the picture.

My main point here was...dump the tapes altogether and go for removable drives.

They're so much faster and reliable than tape, and you can restore a file or folder in seconds instead of ... a half-hour?.

Linux now supports hot removable media on USB 2.0 interface adapters.  Using an 80 or 120 gig ATA hard drive ($105-$150 mail order), a $45 external USB 2 hard drive case and a simple good-ole Unix style script run on cron, you can create a very inexpensive, dependable, fast and simple backup system that can't be beat at any price.

Fast - copies files at breakneck speed (480Mbps I/O interface) in read-only mode, allowing you to copy many kinds of open files too.
Simple - unmount the drive, power it off, unplug it, replace it with the next one in rotation, power it on, and mount it.  Voi-la.  That's it.  No loading and no loading delicate autoloader magazines.
Easy - anyone can recover a file, simply by copying from the backup mount to original location.  Ta-da!  No training needed, and no special software.
Portable - slip the case into a padded carrier, and take the drive off-site.  Return the next day with the one it replaced, and return it to the rotation pool.
Cheap - buy five drives and cases for just $750-$975, less than the cost of most 24 gig tape drives - and that's before you've bought the tapes!
Long Life - the right hard drives come with a three year warranty, as opposed to a one-year warranty on a tape drive, and one-year on tape media.  Hard drive life expectancy is 5 years.  Try getting a tape drive to last that long.
No Cleaning - no dirt - enough said.
No Software to Buy - write your own script to selectively backup what you need.  You can even pause, copy out and resume SQL data bases too.  Try that with other programs!
Archives - don't erase old files, just leave them there.  This media is much larger than your file server store.  Only changed and new files get copied.  This lets you recover those tax records accounting accidentally erased (and of course were not archived) six months ago!  Try that with tape!
Better Environmental - hard drives can take the heat and cold.  Tapes can't.
Bigger Capacity - a tape loader or DLT system capable of storing 100 gig costs between $2800 and $7,000 - once again, not counting the media.  And 100 gig DLT media runs $100 right there.
It Can Grow - need a larger store...get this...use two at a time!  So this solution expands and scales nicely.
Read Elsewhere - install a $40 USB 2 controller in another machine and you can read/write/format the media there too!  No expensive drive to buy or to move/reinstall when upgrading your server.

I don't know what all this fuss is about.  For my money, tapes are not the way to go.  They just don't make sense.

dave...

Adrian S

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2002, 12:08:30 AM »
Ok Dave

Fair comment mate point taken.

I am going to checkout and test what you suggest and see how i get on.

Best Regards

Adrian


PS Thanks to all you guys for your help with this I have taken on board all opinions and ideas.

Thanks again.

BillR

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2002, 09:47:04 AM »
Has anyone tried the BRU Linux backup option.
I have used it on a couple of redhat machines and it is super.
It accepts command scripts and can be scheduled. They try to use system commands as much as possible. There is a gui but I believe it needs X to run.
I will be giving it a try soon for a customer and wlll let y'all know.

Greg O

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2002, 05:11:50 PM »
Dave,

Your post excited me somewhat, because it seems all I want to do, I _can_ do. My only problem, I'm not entirely sure how.

What 'program' or tool do you use (and/or suggest using)? You're saying just write scripts - that contain tar or rsync or... ? Heck, have you got a script or two that you would share? I've had troubles with simply using tar to date, specifically with large volumes of data (> 2GB), ext2 file system file size limits, and tar not handling multi-volumes particularly well when restoring.

Is there any chance of you giving specific details on how to implement your suggested strategy, and if you've actually done it (it sounds very good, and very plausible in theory, but in practice...? I'd like to know), and even where to get the items at said good prices, or even specific item vendors/manufacturers/names/models?

I'm eagerly looking forward to finally finally finally sorting out my backup woes once and for all.

aTdHvAaNnKcSe

Adrian

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2002, 07:07:01 PM »
Bill

Where would you find this to try out?

Adrian S

Billr

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2002, 12:06:27 AM »
The address of the makers of the BRU software is
http://www.tolisgroup.com/

Dave Donaldson

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2002, 10:45:35 AM »
Greg,

I actually do my backups on Windows 2000, and so do not currently have any Linux scripts - however let me give you a layout of such a beast!

First - and this is really cool, I don't use ANY foreign file formats.  No archived tar files and no compression except on Windows 2000 since it does it transparently.  

By this I mean...backups are simply COPIES of their originals - in the exact same directory tree structure!  This is VERY important, as it lets any authorized operator restore a damaged or erased file simply by drag-copying the backup copy back to where it originated, or some other location if they're timid about doing otherwise (which I ususally am).

So imagine your backup as a complete clone or photocopy of your original.  You can clone the whole thing, OS and all, or just your custom utilities and scripts, user files and network shared folders.  With Windows, I only clone the network shares and my utilities.  With Linux, I might be more inclined to clone the whole thing, but you must backup each file system except of course, the swap partition.

And if you expect the backup copy to be bootable, you'd better copy that too!  You'll need to create partitions for each file system of the exact same type for it to boot.  Otherwise, you can redirect each file system to a folder (forgive me, I meant to say "directory") on your backup media.

With Windows, I use xcopy or another utility called xxcopy, both of which [finally] have excellent command-line sets that allow you to backup files and directories en masse complete with permissions.

With Linux, I'd use the cp, copydir or mirrordir commands.  The latter two do not come with all distributions, but you can find them using Google.  I found mirrordir at Tucows, and found the link to www.sourceforge.net where it's hosted as an open source project under the GNU license.

Mirrordir clones directory trees with permissions and hard links.  Your backup procedure needs to be well written using tests to make sure the media is available and mounted, as mirrordir can copy the wrong way if your source and destinations are not named correctly.  (Same with any "copy" command.)

Note that mirrordir by default, deletes files on the destination (your backup drive) that no longer exist on the source.  cp on the other hand, will not.  I am unaware if mirrordir has an option to leave existing files intact.  I happen to like doing so, as I use BIG or compressed drives to backup smaller ones, allowing me to keep the old junk as long as I can.  (You can just imaging the look of my basement from this admission.)

There's nothing nicer than making your customer downright exhuberant when you're able to recover last year's tax returns in 10 seconds - because they were never deleted from the backup media.  Very cool!

You still need archives if you want a periodic snapshot of all the firm's files - but you can do that on tape or CD-R if you like.  I prefer CD-R since it's life expectancy is 10 times that of tape and since every PC I mannage has the CD drive to read the archives.  Splitting the files across multiple CD-R media is not a lot of fun, but some backup commands allow spanning.  I REALLY hate tape.  (Can you tell?)

cp used to be the absolute worst and slowest file copy command under Unix, however it's not the same animal in Linux, and now has some good command-line options that make it an strong choice for cloning file systems complete with permissions and links.  Look at cp's "-dfpRuv" switches as a good example of the options you'd want to use to produce a great backup.

A cron job starts my script - called "bkup.cmd" and includes code for the following tasks...

1)  Create a log file to monitor the process.  Use a unique name generated with the "date" command.

2)  Verify the backup media is mounted.  Do this with the "test" command.  If not, post a message to the log file and using the "mail" command, e-mail the log to the backup administrator and then exit, otherwise continue.

3)  One at a time, stop or pause any processes that might have a data base open, copy the data out using cp, dump or an appropriate SQL command and then resume/restart each process.  This step lets you have clones of your in-process files that would otherwise be locked and therefore skipped.

You pretty much have to custom design your script file here.  If you have no special data bases that would be open exclusively, just skip this step.

4)  Mirror your desired folders using the cp, copydir or mirrordir command, one folder at a time.  Set the --verbose switch if you like, and redirect (append) the status out to the log file.

5)  Copy the now completed log file to the backup media.  (Any earlier copy was incomplete.)  Using the "mail" command, e-mail the log to the backup administrator.

That's it.  Sorry I don't have a decent Linux based script for you at this time, but if I create one soon, I'll e-mail you a copy.

I'd also take a long look at the various backup programs mentioned in this thread, since some may have options to perform file-to-file copies discussed here.

I prefer non-proprietary file formats as I mentioned before.  Backup files should just be files.

There's nothing worse than not being able to read the contents of a backup media without first having to install special software or hardware.  And since nearly all PCs now have USB ports of one kind or another, you can always read these external drives on any workstation.

USB 2.0 drives can be read using either USB 1 or 2 connections.  Mind you, they're 12 times slower on USB 1, but you can still access them at a usable rate.  The only requirement is...the OS has to be able to see the partition and file system.

To obtain the best pricing for hardware, I simply use Google.com and Pricewatch.com to research out vendors.

I purchase IBM and Seagate "top-of-the-line" IDE drives with 3-year warranties, paying (as of October 1,2002) $103 for an 80 gig and $153 for a 120 gig from Googlegear.com.

You need to be careful about warranties.  Most drive manufacturers are reducing them to one year for much of their line.  Some will sell you extended warranties on their web sites.  The top-of-the-line still has 3-year warranties as of this writing.

I buy something called an ME-320 USB 2.0 external drive housing (I don't know the manufacturer) from audioexchange.com for $43 each, and a generic PCI USB 2.0 controller for $14 each.

I hope all this helps.

dave...

Ray Mitchell

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2002, 12:29:07 PM »
Rod
I'm looking at Arkeia, only read the quick start manual so far. What did you do about X, did you instal a GUI on your sme server ? What do you use/recommend here.
Have you found Arkeia easy to use and/or have you had any particular issues in conjunction with the sme server.
Your feedback would be appreciated.
Thanks
Ray Mitchell

Hugh Fox

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2002, 08:04:49 AM »
Arkeia v4.2 has a Java based GUI which I run on a Windows workstation, controlling Arkeia on my SME server.

I like Arkeia as it creates a catalog of what was backed up and when. Power Arkeia users do not like Arkeia's method of storing that catalog, but it works very well for me. Having the catalog means that different versions of a file can be searched for through a series of backups.

Arkeia 5 (their latest version) no longer has the Java GUI  ;-(( But quite frankly 4.2 seems to be doing the job very well for me.

Hugh

Ray Mitchell

Re: Backup & Restore
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2002, 08:44:29 AM »
Thanks for the feedback Hugh, Rod & others

Ray Mitchell